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roadtrip

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #1 

 Question about NCAA rule -- 4 players / college or university allowed on Summer team. Why only 4 / team when the college has nothing to do about summer ball. How can the NCAA dictate what the girls do in the off season? Has anyone questioned this with the NCAA ?

BillSmith

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 5,406
Reply with quote  #2 

roadtrip-

 

Imagine it might be passed down from other team sports. Also, this "4 only" applies to D-1 players, not other divisions (D-2 & D-3).

 

Other stipulations would be that the student-athlete's coach(es) may not participate on that players team nor coach/manage. A coach may not be an administrator of a team or league in which her/his athletes might be participating. Coaches can play on another team, coach another team, but not be involved beyond the scope of that squad.

 

As far as how can they dictate what the girls (or guys for that matter) do in the off-season, summer ball is only one in a myriad of restrictions the student-athlete faces.


Forms of employment are restricted. Athletes are drug tested upon returning from summer, thus certain socializing has ramifications.

Schools have rules. Play by them and you play. Want change? Get on a committee!


__________________
Bill Smith
West Bay Nuggets
NorCal Women's Fastpitch Summer League
info: nuggetsoftball@aol.com

Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
CajunAmos

Registered: 01/25/11
Posts: 435
Reply with quote  #3 
For college baseball, all of the players from a team can play summer ball, with the only stipulation that no more than 4 can be on a single summer league team. They don't want to have the complete college team to be able to play together during the summer.
LMUfan

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 7,358
Reply with quote  #4 
Cajun,

You hit the nail on the head.  If an entire team were permitted to play together they it might as well be an extension of fall ball. Next thing you know the summer team's coach is the graduate assistant from the college team. 



DieHardFan

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 107
Reply with quote  #5 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
Cajun,

You hit the nail on the head.  If an entire team were permitted to play together they it might as well be an extension of fall ball. Next thing you know the summer team's coach is the graduate assistant from the college team. 



For what it's worth, kids that have signed NLIs (and have not participated in a college game yet) and even enrolled/attending summer school do not count against the four.  And although, it is not strictly enforced...kids are not allowed to wear or use any equipment representing their programs such as gloves or helmets.  According to compliance offices (which I called personally) that is viewed as a recruiting violation.    On my DDs 23U team, we physically covered all school emblems and names with tape.

LMUfan

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 7,358
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DieHardFan

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMUfan
Cajun,

You hit the nail on the head.  If an entire team were permitted to play together they it might as well be an extension of fall ball. Next thing you know the summer team's coach is the graduate assistant from the college team. 



For what it's worth, kids that have signed NLIs (and have not participated in a college game yet) and even enrolled/attending summer school do not count against the four.  And although, it is not strictly enforced...kids are not allowed to wear or use any equipment representing their programs such as gloves or helmets.  According to compliance offices (which I called personally) that is viewed as a recruiting violation.    On my DDs 23U team, we physically covered all school emblems and names with tape.



In the 6 years my daughter has played Women's Open ball I can say that I've only seen one or two players play in the summer after their senior year of high school.  Most of them want one last year of 18 Gold travel ball.  Mostly because they don't know about Women's Open.   In fact, most college freshman still go back to travel ball where they are now the big fish.  The freshman that play Women's Open (or 23U) do so because they're tool old for 18U.

As to taped over logos on the helmet, I've never seen that in Women's Open.  Lots of college helmets there with the logos showing.  I doubt my daughter used her college helmet but there was no way to tell since LMU at that time didn't have logos on the helmet.  In fact LMU only had about 6 helmets that all the players shared so it's unlikely she would have had the opportunity to borrow one for summer ball.
smartwater

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #7 
The NCAA can and does dictate what Division 1 collegiate players do in the summer because playing a sport in college is a privilege and not a right. As BillSmith said, there are rules.

This is why the compliance office reviews the rules with the kids each year.



LMUfan

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 7,358
Reply with quote  #8 
Bill and Smartwater,

I'm not an exxpert on NCAA rules so I have a question for you two.  This is kinda long so read it all.

The background:
One thing I do know is that NCAA rules are specific with regard to giving gifts or favors to athletes.  For example, let's say Daddy Warbucks has a daughter playing at Always Top Ten U softball school which is located in Southern California.  His daughter is roommates with Precilla Poorkid from Kentucky who really is poor.  Daddy goes to all the games and often takes his daughter, Wendy, out to dinner for a nice meal after the game.  He wants to take Precilla out also but knows it's an NCAA violation to take her to dinner and he resists.

Hang in there, this really is a summer ball question.  Daddy also knows that it's tough for Precilla to afford to get back to Kentucky for Thanksgiving and Christmas and longs to help her.  Alas, he doesn't succumb, never buys her a ticket home because he knows because of his wealth his actions are constantly scrutinized by the school and compliance officer.

Wendy Warbucks plays summer ball in the So Cal Women's Open league on a team called the Acorns. The Acorns are so-so and really need some help.  So, Daddy gets involved.  He gets involved the only way he knows how, with money.  He acts as Sugar Daddy and offers to pay for everything with regard to the team.  He'll pay transportation, airfare, housing, fees, equipment and uniforms for the Acorns.  Meals, at great steak places after the games are a staple.  He can treat the players the way he wanted to treat Precilla but couldn't. He finds apartments or host homes for out of town kids to stay during the summer.

Question 1: Has he or the Acorns committed any violations so far?  Even if Precilla is on the Acorns?

OK, let's extend this further...

Daddy wants to get the best players for the Acorns.  So, he goes to ATTU and talks to the head coach.  He makes this deal with ATTU's coach:  Send 4 top players to the Acorns every summer.  Guarantee it.  In return Daddy will pay round trip airfare from where ever they live, he'll pay for their apartment and he'll pay for their food while they're in So Cal during the summer.   

He tells the ATTU coach that the players will be put up in an apartment near ATTU's campus so the player can attend summer school.  This is appealing to many players as they can live in So Cal, play ball on weekends and graduate on time because they're in summer school.

There will be no fee to play on the Acorns as Daddy is paying for everything. Not a penny out of the pocket of the player for anything.  When the Acorns go to state, regional and national tournaments he pays for all the travel and housing.  They stay in 5 star hotels wherever they go.

This works so well that Daddy goes to three other top ten teams and makes the same offer. They take him up on it and the Acorns become the top Women's Open team to ever take the field.  Nobody can ever beat them.  Daddy is very happy.

Question 2:  Is this a violation of NCAA rules? 

Question 3: Wendy no longer plays ball.  She doesn't even play for the Acorns.  But Daddy still supports the team, still gets the great players and everything is still free for all players.  Now that he's no longer associated in any way with ATTU is this now OK?

Question 4:  Let's say Daddy Warbucks never had a daughter play in college.  He's just a travel ball coach whose daughter quit softball after high school but he still wants to coach.  Can he pay for everything for the team, including airfare, housing, fees, etc. without any repercussions from the NCAA?  What if he gives the girls some spending money?  Are they in danger of losing their amateur status?
don

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 177
Reply with quote  #9 

You forgot the summer job where needed.

BillSmith

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 5,406
Reply with quote  #10 

It has been a few days...missed this.

 

#1 Athletes can be compensated for "normal" expenses for training, travel, etc. Lodging for the entire summer might be considered a stretch.

 

#2 This further extension has all the ability to be within guidelines, as long as the handshake agreement stayed unspoken. However, the compensation of reasonable expenses could be considered excessive.

 

#3 Doesn't matter. By NCAA definition, once a booster, alwasy a booster.

 

Definition of a Representative or Booster: NCAA legislation defines a representative of the institution's athletics interests or booster as an individual or agency that has done any of the following (once defined as a booster, an individual or agency remains a booster indefinitely):

  • Participated in or is a member of any agency or organization that promotes or assists the institution's athletics program or its student-athletes
  • Has made financial contributions to the athletics program or any of its booster groups
  • Has assisted or has been requested to assist in the recruitment of prospects
  • Assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes or their families
  • Has been involved in the promoting the institution's athletics programs
  • Additional actions that prompt someone to be considered a booster may include, but is not limited to, being a season-ticket holder, attending or graduating from the institution, previously being employed by the institution, or participating in athletics at the institution

#4 Again, what you describe could be judged as beyond reasonable expectations of compensation of the athlete's training, travel and equipment expenses. Spending money? Sorry, Charlie, even the best stars can't be kissed like this.

 

Have dealt with this more in tennis than softball. Fledgling mfgrs. equipment rep wants to throw promotional gear around like Santa Claus. I'm usually the bearer of bad news. Very difficult position.

 


__________________
Bill Smith
West Bay Nuggets
NorCal Women's Fastpitch Summer League
info: nuggetsoftball@aol.com

Sometimes you are the mole, sometimes the mushroom.
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