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DunninLA

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 4,592
Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by softballrealistnca
Do you think there is a correlation between gender of coaches and the success rate in Women's Softball? .....
this is one of those threads where you're damned if you do...

There was a time when a male baseball coach had a better grasp of the mechanics of hitting a softball HARD.   Ten years ago, maybe even seven years ago, the thought that a swing is a swing, that a softball swing is no different from a baseball swing, was not the majority opinion.  I'm of course not talking about slapping, but hitting away.

Now that the majority of elite softball players are taught to swing the bat with the goal of hitting the ball with extreme velocity, on a line drive, vs. the 1980, 1990's instruction to chop down on the ball with the goal of just "getting the ball into play", I would say the advantage of having coached baseball is much less today than five or seven years ago.   Everybody now agrees that the goal of a non-slapper is to hit the ball as hard as they can in a line drive, and accidentally hit about 15 home runs along the way by missing one quarter inch under.  I think she should confine her coaching tips to pitcher, not hitting.

So, now that it is no longer the case that softball coaches teach terrible hitting and baseball coaches teach proper hitting, the advantage of having coached baseball is much less.

The real advantage is having a coach who was an elite pitcher at the highest level of the game... men's fastpitch.  If for nothing else, that's one hell of an effective batting practice. 

P.S.   What on earth is Michelle Smith trying to say when she praises a hitter for "getting their hands to the ball"?  Getting the knob to the ballin the early part of the swing I understand, but hands?   Anybody who gets to the ball with their hands will have a bunch of broken fingers.

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3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #32 
Pretty common hitting term.... Throw your hands at the ball.... get the hands to the ball. Now, for the nitty-gritty definition.... I'm not a hitting coach and would miss some details
bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #33 
Dunnin, I disagree with everything you said pertaining to hitting....

Softball players do not hit the ball hard....Most hits are weakly hit....Hitting instruction is really bad in softball, overall....Not kind of bad, really bad....Softball players take way too many pitches...The reason is, they don't have the confidence to put the bat on the ball unless the pitcher makes a mistake and puts the ball down the middle....

Softball coaches would do a lot better for their team if they would let their players have outside hitting instructors....Instead, they have a "you hit my way or you don't play here" policy....Problem is, their way keeps players from reaching anywhere near their hitting potential...."Knob to the ball" and "hands to the ball" are, both, equally bad hitting technique....This is the kind of stuff that is taught by college coaches....Square the frontside, get the hands back and wait for something down the middle....Hope the pitcher isn't hitting her spots....

And, a homerun is not a missed hit....The swing plane of the bat is what produces a line-drive, which homeruns are.......Ground balls and pop-ups and flyballs to the outfield are, either, missed hits or bad swing planes....The greater the batspeed, the farther the ball will go on whatever swing plane the bat is swung in...

I do agree with you that softball coaches would do much better to concentrate on improving their pitchers.....
bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Pretty common hitting term.... Throw your hands at the ball.... get the hands to the ball.


Common, but, garbage teaching.....

And, don't get the hands back, get 'em up and in....And, don't start that until you start recognizing the pitch...



airborne

Registered: 03/31/12
Posts: 188
Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunninLA
Quote:
Originally Posted by softballrealistnca
Do you think there is a correlation between gender of coaches and the success rate in Women's Softball? .....
this is one of those threads where you're damned if you do...

There was a time when a male baseball coach had a better grasp of the mechanics of hitting a softball HARD.   Ten years ago, maybe even seven years ago, the thought that a swing is a swing, that a softball swing is no different from a baseball swing, was not the majority opinion.  I'm of course not talking about slapping, but hitting away.

Now that the majority of elite softball players are taught to swing the bat with the goal of hitting the ball with extreme velocity, on a line drive, vs. the 1980, 1990's (a lot of present day too) instruction to chop down on the ball with the goal of just "getting the ball into play", I would say the advantage of having coached baseball is much less today than five or seven years ago.   Everybody now agrees that the goal of a non-slapper is to hit the ball as hard as they can in a line drive, and accidentally hit about 15 home runs along the way by missing one quarter inch under.  I think she should confine her coaching tips to pitcher, not hitting.

So, now that it is no longer the case that softball coaches teach terrible hitting and baseball coaches teach proper hitting, the advantage of having coached baseball is much less.

The real advantage is having a coach who was an elite pitcher at the highest level of the game... men's fastpitch.  If for nothing else, that's one hell of an effective batting practice. 

P.S.   What on earth is Michelle Smith trying to say when she praises a hitter for "getting their hands to the ball"?  Getting the knob to the ballin the early part of the swing I understand, but hands?   Anybody who gets to the ball with their hands will have a bunch of broken fingers.


Should that read ten maybe seven days ago?...

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LMUfan

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 7,359
Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Quote:
Pretty common hitting term.... Throw your hands at the ball.... get the hands to the ball.


Common, but, garbage teaching.....





A phrase commonly used by Jessica Mendoza.  She seems to have done well.




3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Quote:
Pretty common hitting term.... Throw your hands at the ball.... get the hands to the ball.


Common, but, garbage teaching.....

And, don't get the hands back, get 'em up and in....And, don't start that until you start recognizing the pitch...



Up, in... and throw the hands.

Always think it's funny, referencing HOF baseball players, hitting at a ball released from 10 feet high

But, yes, it is all window dressing until that heel sticks in the ground
Fresh

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 410
Reply with quote  #38 
I think most of the hitting crap instruction came from trying to hit the rise ball. There is a misconception that a rise thrown for a strike is actually rising through the strike zone. Even a rise, thrown for a strike, is falling as it passes the plate. There is no need to use any other swing than the one that most successful baseball players use. Thank you Mike Candrea.....thank you Sue Enquist.....and most of all, thank you, thank you, thank you, Don Slaught. Hitting really started to make sense with RVP.
NuNusDad

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #39 
The biggest difference between baseball and softball coaches is that softball coaches tend to have been great players while MLB coaches are almost NEVER top level/hof ex players. Also true of great announcers.

Why is that? Journeyman minor leaguers who had a cup of coffee in the bigs are the most common manager with ex catchers the most common position. I know that multi billion dollar mlb franchises probably dont take this stuff as seriously as the average AD, but...

Asking Jessica Mendoza how she does what she does would be like asking Barry Bonds or Babe Ruth how they did it. Take video instead, as it would probably contradict just about everything they say they do. Doing something and teaching something are very different skills!
3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
I think most of the hitting crap instruction came from trying to hit the rise ball. There is a misconception that a rise thrown for a strike is actually rising through the strike zone. Even a rise, thrown for a strike, is falling as it passes the plate. There is no need to use any other swing than the one that most successful baseball players use. Thank you Mike Candrea.....thank you Sue Enquist.....and most of all, thank you, thank you, thank you, Don Slaught. Hitting really started to make sense with RVP.
Rise for a strike is released at 2.5 feet from the ground and ends up 3-3.5 feet from the ground.
NuNusDad

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 251
Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3leftturns
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
I think most of the hitting crap instruction came from trying to hit the rise ball. There is a misconception that a rise thrown for a strike is actually rising through the strike zone. Even a rise, thrown for a strike, is falling as it passes the plate. There is no need to use any other swing than the one that most successful baseball players use. Thank you Mike Candrea.....thank you Sue Enquist.....and most of all, thank you, thank you, thank you, Don Slaught. Hitting really started to make sense with RVP.
Rise for a strike is released at 2.5 feet from the ground and ends up 3-3.5 feet from the ground.


Time for another round of Physics 101!
3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuNusDad
The biggest difference between baseball and softball coaches is that softball coaches tend to have been great players while MLB coaches are almost NEVER top level/hof ex players. Also true of great announcers. Why is that? Journeyman minor leaguers who had a cup of coffee in the bigs are the most common manager with ex catchers the most common position. I know that multi billion dollar mlb franchises probably dont take this stuff as seriously as the average AD, but... Asking Jessica Mendoza how she does what she does would be like asking Barry Bonds or Babe Ruth how they did it. Take video instead, as it would probably contradict just about everything they say they do. Doing something and teaching something are very different skills!
Well put
3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh
I think most of the hitting crap instruction came from trying to hit the rise ball. There is a misconception that a rise thrown for a strike is actually rising through the strike zone. Even a rise, thrown for a strike, is falling as it passes the plate. There is no need to use any other swing than the one that most successful baseball players use. Thank you Mike Candrea.....thank you Sue Enquist.....and most of all, thank you, thank you, thank you, Don Slaught. Hitting really started to make sense with RVP.
It's important to be linear, and rotate. All at once.
JoiseyGuy

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 23,865
Reply with quote  #44 
I just love it when we here on UCS come 360 degrees and begin to discuss what has been discussed here so often - for example "hitting" or the "rise ball".  My rise ball was my best pitch, but I now refer to it as my "illusion pitch" as a result of intelligent conversation here.           Frank
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bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #45 
LMUfan, hitting is hitting....No matter if you're swinging a tree branch at a thrown grapefruit....There are many swing sequences and patterns within the sequences.....And, most all of them are very inefficient....I will say it again, college softball players do not hit the ball hard most of the time....A result of inefficient swing sequence....Most hitting instruction in college softball is, swatting at the ball.....A coach calling pitches who can recognize the weaknesses of the bad sequences can make that swing break down....

It's already been said, Mendoza has no idea how she swung a bat....She naturally had a decent swing sequence and, I'm sure, in spite of coaches trying to teach her otherwise!

3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
LMUfan, hitting is hitting....No matter if you're swinging a tree branch at a thrown grapefruit....There are many swing sequences and patterns within the sequences.....And, most all of them are very inefficient....I will say it again, college softball players do not hit the ball hard most of the time....A result of inefficient swing sequence....Most hitting instruction in college softball is, swatting at the ball.....A coach calling pitches who can recognize the weaknesses of the bad sequences can make that swing break down....

It's already been said, Mendoza has no idea how she swung a bat....She naturally had a decent swing sequence and, I'm sure, in spite of coaches trying to teach her otherwise!
The core-of-the-order players CRUSH the ball. And, BASEBALL players hit the ball hard most of the time??? LOL

Yes, they center up their uppercut every once in a while with spectacular results, but Puhhhhhlease
bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #47 
3leftturns said......

Quote:
It's important to be linear, and rotate. All at once.


They're opposites...


Quote:
I'm not a hitting coach and would miss some details


Now, this makes sense....But, you miss more than just details...
TruDat

Registered: 06/07/10
Posts: 320
Reply with quote  #48 
Hey Fresh, it just goes to show you how things can get miscontrued. A riseball is "not" falling when it comes past the batter. You have never been in the box when a real one was thrown or you would never say that. To hit a ball that is moving either up or down the batter must meet the ball at its final destination, anticipating the path of the ball. The swing should be the same in either case. A slightly uppercut swing can work in baseball because the mound is up in the air.
bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
A riseball is "not" falling when it comes past the batter.


Yes, it is...And, I've been in the box....It falls slower than a fastball, but, it does fall.....
DunninLA

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 4,592
Reply with quote  #50 
OK, this is what I meant when I wrote: "you're damned if you do".

Leaving the hitting discussion aside, my point was if you think baseball trained coaches are better at teaching their softball players to hit in softball than softball trained coaches are, then you probably think there is an advantage to baseball trained coaches crossing over into softball.

If you do not think that baseball trained coaches are better at teaching their softball players to hit, then you probably don't think there is an advantage to a baseball trained coach crossing over into softball.

P.S.  Back when eteamz had a softball forum, Scott Sarginson posted some graphs of the trajectory of a fastball vs. a riseball.   That was around 2007.   I cannot find that post b/c I cannot figure out how to find the old eteamz softball forum.

Anyway... the riseball thrown for a strike (that's an important caveat) starts low, rises higher than a fastball does, plateaus at about 15' before the plate, and in the last 10' does in fact begin to drop... about 2 inches.   The key issue is that it drops less, and begins its drop later, than a fastball does, so by the time a hitter realizes it is not a fastball, it is too late to alter their bat path, and they swing 1-3" below the middle of the ball, often missing it entirely.

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TruDat

Registered: 06/07/10
Posts: 320
Reply with quote  #51 
Bluedog, another ill informed poster. I don't know what box you were in where a "riseball" fell but it couldn't have been a rise ball. On the youtube video below at 1:09 tell me when this one falls.

bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #52 

This is the swing sequence of college softball hitting instruction.....Rarely will a ball be hit hard this way....And, is the reason why good pitchers look great.....

3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Straight line to the hitting plane, then level.... and then the up finish. Have no clue what you are trying to illustrate here. Explode the hips through with a level swing. If anything, most of the rotational extremists I know would value a swing that is in a major uppercut arriving at the hitting zone. You CAN be a Kingman-esque power-hitting stud that way, but you have to be a much better innate hitter to counteract your bat spending so much less time through the pitch plane
ProudDad

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 6,667
Reply with quote  #54 
I know my daughter didn't use that swing path.
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3leftturns

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 4,476
Reply with quote  #55 
I'd call that path the Inverse Pinata Swing
bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
I know my daughter didn't use that swing path.


No, she didn't...Neither did Ted! 
ProudDad

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 6,667
Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog
Quote:
I know my daughter didn't use that swing path.


No, she didn't...Neither did Ted! 

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bluedog

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 4,696
Reply with quote  #58 
I'm gonna have to start saying, with one exception....Although, might add Bustos, also.....She was OK!
DunninLA

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 4,592
Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruDat
Bluedog,  I don't know ...  where a "riseball" fell but it couldn't have been a rise ball. On the youtube video below at 1:09 tell me when this one falls.
OK, good point TruDat.  It's coming back to me now, especially the fine points of that discussion from 2007.

The rise ball DOES keep rising with respect to the ground... that is, it starts at about 24" off the ground, and ends (a strike at least) about 40" above the ground, and at no point is it less far from the ground than earlier in the pitch path.   But it doesn't keep rising above the plane (angle above the ground) of the ball established in the first 10'.  To put it a different way, if the pitch starts at a 13 degree angle relative to the ground, at mid path it drops to about 11 degree angle, and at finish it is about 9 degree angle... so the angle relative to the ground drops because of gravity, but the ball is still rising with respect to the GROUND, just rising (relative to the ground) less fast at the end than at the beginning.

To summarize:  the ball keeps rising relative to the ground, but the ball is dropping relative to the angle of ascent established in the first 10' of the pitch.

I think when people say the rise ball doesn't rise, they mean the angle of the ball relative to the ground does not increase.  Some people seem to have taken a position that the backward spin of the pitch makes the angle relative to the ground increase as the pitch makes its path to home plate, but that is clearly not the case.

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vol52

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 828
Reply with quote  #60 
Never mind the trajectory, why is a skeleton swinging the bat?  

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